Hello and welcome to another episode of the Working Conversations podcast where we talk all things leadership, business, communication and trends in organizational life. I'm your host, Dr. Janel Anderson.

In a recent article by the Washington Post, it was highlighted that a staggering $30 trillion in baby boomer wealth is projected to be predominantly controlled by women. This significant shift in wealth ownership is not just a statistical anomaly. It's the seismic societal transformation with far reaching implications for the economy, business and, of course, the workforce. But what does that mean for the future of work? How will this redistribution of wealth impact industries, workplace dynamics and financial strategies?

To unpack these questions and more, I've invited a seasoned financial expert who specializes in wealth management. My guest today is Karen Coyne, a certified financial planner, which is an earned designation that is a formidable accomplishment to earn. She is a strategic wealth advisor with clarity planning an independent office of Raymond James. She hosts the podcast, Money without Math, the end of financial anxiety, which I highly recommend. And she is also a foodie and a wine enthusiast like me. Karen, welcome to the show.

Karen: Thanks so much for having me, Janel.

I am so excited to dive into this conversation. This is so important for us to understand and anticipate and just really get our minds around.

Karen: Yes, then it's something that, you know, I hear about regularly in my universe, but I'm really curious about if people are hearing the same message outside of my universe. I don't get the sense that people are aware that the shift is happening.

That's exactly why I wanted to have you on the show to talk about this, because I concur 100% I don't think that it is being talked about as widely in the rest of the world, outside of the financial planning community. So can you provide us with an overview of the current landscape regarding this transfer of wealth, particularly context of these $30 trillion Baby Boomer dollars that are being talked about, yes, so

Karen: In broad brushstrokes, assets are expected to increase from 87 trillion today to over 140 trillion by 2030 in general, across the board, okay, of which about half of that, let's call it 64 trillion is investable assets. So outside of, you know, like our primary residence. And these are these numbers that I'm pulling from a Deloitte study, millennials will see the fastest increase in this period of time, which makes sense. And then, of course, you know, my Gen X brethren will see an increase, and until then, the baby boomers are expected to still hold the majority of the wealth in the United States. But McKenzie in particular pointed out in their 2020 study that women stand to control about 30 trillion by 2030 which, like you said, is a seismic shift and pretty unprecedented, and that 2030 is not that far from now.

No, it's not, it's not around the corner. No.

Karen: So I feel like, you know, like I said, I mean, I feel like I I talk about these things in my universe, but is it? Is it permeating that bubble? Because we need to get the message out for so many reasons, which I'm sure we'll talk about today, because, yeah, that's just around the corner. That's a lot of money. And there are a number of implications, which I'm looking forward to discussing.

All right, so what are the key drivers behind this? I mean, why is this happening?

Karen: Mostly through inheritance? So as you know, the Gen the older groomers are passing that job that that wealth is passing to the next gen. And again, you know, the largest recipients stand to be Gen X and millennials. And we're already starting to see this happen. So part of me wonders if it will be something that happens, you know, slowly, slowly and then all of a sudden, which I won't be surprised if we end up kind of experiencing that.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. Because, as we think about even just the the impact of baby boomers retirement or their anticipated retirement. That was happening literally a couple of decades ago. We were anticipating all these baby boomers retiring, and then, of course, we had the great recession, and so people hung on longer, and then they were about to retire, and then we had the pandemic. And so people hung on longer. Just this uncertainty in the world makes people hang on to their jobs longer. And so anyway, we saw that happening, and now the impact of those retirements, and then, as you say, the inheritance and that transfer of wealth is is going to be fascinating. So how does this trend intersect with some broader discussions of gender equality, women's empowerment, not only in the financial realm, but as we think about society as a whole.

Karen: Okay, so, you know, I was thinking about this in preparation for our conversation today, and the first thing that I thought about is this could be an opportunity for a lot of women for the first time in their lives, or at least the first time in many years in their lives to ask, What do I want? What do I actually want for my life, or after years of putting themselves last, caring for, you know, growing children and a growing family, accommodating a spouse and their studies, their career, caring for aging parents, right? And you and I are probably about the same age, and we probably have friends that are going through this. You might be going through this yourself. You know, I have a mother who's aging, and I have young children, and so I think what I the biggest thing that I see is that, you know, if you have a windfall, or even if it's not, say, a windfall, but an amount of money that can make your life a little bit easier and give you some breathing room, that can be a prompt to just say, you know, what do I really what do I want? Do I want to continue, not just with this work, this relationship that I'm in? Do I want to am I okay with my health as it is, if I'm anticipating that I'm going to live longer, you know, how can I make improvements to my life? I don't want to keep living the way that I've been living, perhaps overweight, stressed out, not sleeping well. So I think it's going to be profound in a number of different ways. And by the way, that question, which you may know, what do I want? It's really difficult to answer. Really difficult. It's simple question and very difficult to answer.

It is very difficult to answer. And I mean, I think there's so many different ways in which it can be answered. As you mentioned, you know, is this the relationship I want to be in? Is this the job I want to be in? I was also thinking of housing, you know, if somebody comes into windfall, you know, as they're thinking about aging in place, and thinking about like, where they're, where they're currently living, is not where they want to live, whether that comes down to the actual dwelling, or even the part of the country or the world, or they're like.

Karen: Exactly, that's a great point. Yeah, so, and I think that falls under the umbrella that I think about as, you know, looking for purpose, looking for joy, looking for fulfillment, all these different ways that that, you know, might shift lives, from location to work relationships, and I think with work in particular, I think about, am I, you know, if I'm a woman again, I'm in The situation, maybe I've just inherited some money where now I have a little bit of breathing room. Maybe it's enough to make me pause and kind of think about these questions. What do I want my life? I'm not feeling seen and heard at work? Am I really inclined to stick around? I think as employers, this really calls for an audit of sorts. How are we really embracing and accommodating, of course, all of our people, but in anticipation, in anticipation of this change. You know, are there adjustments that we need to make? Have we been hearing from some of our employees, and some of our women employees, in particular, about things that they want to see. And in terms of changes to the workplace that maybe we've been slow to respond to, maybe we need to revisit that, you know, because there could be some, there could be, I think, some shifts where people are not feeling seen, heard, valued, and it's not just about money, you know, it's not just about money at all. We all know women who and right, and not just limited to women, but people who've left high paying careers because they didn't feel seen, heard, valued, or they were just overworked. So I mean, I think that there's a big opportunity for employers to kind of do an audit of sorts. And if they've been asking, if they haven't been asking the questions, they need to ask the questions, if they've been asking the questions, then they need to use that answers to actually act and not just, you know, let it end after the conversation.

Yeah, so as employers are thinking about attracting and retaining mid, let's say mid career, mid to senior career women, because that those were the people who are, as I am understanding, it stands to inherit this wealth in the, you know, in the next, say, five to 10 years. So thinking about, how do we attract and retain those folks and really make a place in the organization where they can excel and speak up and be heard and be seen and really contribute everything that they're able to contribute instead of holding back. Yeah, I think a lot of times when we're when and again, I'm right there in that category myself of you know, still have kids at home, have an aging mother in that sandwich generation. And when you think about taking some of the constraints and some of the other things that we're always busy thinking about and caring for everybody and putting ourselves last after the dog is walked, then there's time to give myself a little space. But if, if some of those other constraints are off the table, and I get to think about myself first. How does that yeah, how does that change my work life? How does that change my career? What am I going to be demanding or asking for or looking for in my work life? Fascinating.

Karen: Yes, I I'm already seeing this in the work that I do with clients and again, you know, like we were just saying a few minutes ago, with that kind of slow, slow, slow, and then all of a sudden. So I won't be surprised to see more of that, especially as we are getting closer maybe to that transition point in our careers anyway.

So what are some of the practical implications of this for businesses like and are there any specific sectors where you're seeing it starting to happen first, starting to see what happened that redistribution of wealth, and though you know because you said that, you're starting to see it happen already? Are there? Are there any trends in what you're seeing so far?

Karen: So I think, I think the broad trend again, is that you can't throw money like money is not the answer, right? So if someone is already in a high paying field, but it's very stressful. There's no flexibility. You can't throw more money at that person and expect it to solve the problem.

So it just inherited a bunch of money.

Karen: But exactly right now it's doubly ineffective. So yeah, so kind of going back, I think, you know, a couple that come to mind are medicine, you know, I think about some conversations I've had with clients and colleagues and friends in medicine, and especially in the specialties like surgery that are already very unfriendly to women. It will be interesting to see. You know, it's kind of like this double edged sword, where you need more women to make the cultural changes that need to be made, but yet, women either get there and say no mas, or they just say, it's not even worth it to get into that space. So and now, right with more money coming their way, which, which, which path will they choose? If there is an option for kind of flexibility, and I can still get on this path without working myself to the bone, then that could be a positive outcome. But I think if the if that culture doesn't change, you know, with these changes that are happening, then, you know, we won't see or we could see women leaving some of these fields. And then, you know that that kind of makes me think of the wage gap and some of these, you know, gender issues that we've been hearing about with, you know, we know that there's a wage gap, there's a wealth gap, and will this? How will this contribute to that? I don't think that it's going to solve the wealth gap. I think it could be a net neutral again, because in some ways, you might have women leaving some high paid careers or not being driven to go to the next level on the corporate ladder. But on the other hand, you might have women starting new businesses, side hustles, wide hustles, whatever you want to call it. And we know that women entrepreneurs tend to hire more women, and they tend to pay them better. So maybe the two will, you know, net out, and we'll see a net neutral to maybe a positive. But you know, I'm generally an optimist. That's just something where I don't think it's realistic to say that this transfer is going to close the wealth gap. Do I think it will help? Yes, but because we're not driven in the same way that men are with money, like I said, you know, more money isn't going to keep us in a position if we aren't fulfilled, I just don't, I don't, I don't see that that's going to close with this transfer. I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot.

Yeah, you raised some really valid points, and as you were sharing that, it reminded me of especially as we were talking about the aging parents and so forth I have, I have a friend who is exactly in this position where her mother passed not long ago, she came into more money than she was expecting to certainly at that time in her life, it allowed her to quit her job. She took a one year sabbatical, she bought a new house in a different geographic location, where she could be closer to some other relatives and an extended family that she that are still around. And she took that one year sabbatical to really think about, how did she want to contribute in the rest of her career, what was going to be next in her career? And she moved into an adjacent space in terms of her career trajectory, but she didn't go right back to the same thing she was doing. She moved into a space where she felt she could really give more and contribute more, and it is a more meaningful role for her right?

Karen: See, yeah.

One of the things in her experience, and let me ask you about this. And one of the things in her experience is she wasn't ready to she didn't feel equipped to handle that money. Yes, I think she's done a very good job of, you know, investing in real estate and, you know, all the things. But what's your advice for people who are going to be in a position where they're going to potentially be inheriting a sizable chunk of money, how do they prepare? What should they be doing to get ready for that?

Karen: Yes, I'm so glad you pointed that out, because that's not uncommon. Almost no one is ready when this happens. I get phone calls all the time from women in particular, saying, you know, I've never really been the point person. My spouse has always handled this and he just passed away, or I just appeared as this chunk of money. I've never I hate now. I hate dealing with this stuff. I mean, that is exactly why I created the podcast, and I'm working on a book which, for the love of God, will be done like any year now, but with written exactly for this one, and it is to say, you know more than you think you do. You you have what it takes. And we know research has shown that women are actually better investors than men. And I think what is so funny is that women are often painted as less confident, and to be fair, they do feel less confident, but they are it comes from a place, I believe, of wanting to be smart and make good decisions. So women tend to ask for help and take a more collaborative approach with their money, as opposed to men who might be more inclined to DIY, right? So women might be more inclined to hire a financial advisor so that they know that they're making good decisions. They're not operating they're not, you know, they want eyes and ears. Am I missing something? To me, that's smart. I mean, that's what a lot of successful, you know, successful people do is that they hire people to fill in those blind spots where they don't have a skill set. And women are generally pretty good at that, asking for help, particularly around money. So my advice is, we know this is coming, and we know statistically that we are the last woman standing, and so don't bury your head in the sand. And also, don't underestimate your abilities. You are smart, intelligent, and you are already probably making a lot of good decisions. I see this all the time with women who that very woman who says, Oh, I've never dealt with this stuff. I don't know what to do. I hate math. I'm not then let me come in and have conversations together. I see that they've been contributing the maximum, you know, to their four, 1k, they've got a rainy day fun that's probably even too much money in it. You know, they started by two nine for their children for doing really good thing. But get the messaging that's just constantly thrown at them, which they have bought is so number one, lose that you are fine, and then again, don't, don't delay. That might mean talking to an advisor now, and you know, and depending on your situation, finding a way to engage with an advisor on some level. Because what I've found is that I've seen clients go from completely phobic to one client in particular, but we very first clients about 20 plus years ago. She was super phobic. She hated dealing with all this stuff. But as I just described, highly intelligent and was doing all these good things, putting money away, maxing out retirement plans, etc. Well, she went from being totally phobic to after years of us just meeting, having conversations were showing up, you know, she told me early on, like, Chase charts, graphs, don't, don't, you know, give her that. And so I didn't, I listened right? Said, Okay, let's not talk about that. Let's talk about, you know, what do you see your plan for, kind of easing out of your your career and, you know, sliding into your next chapter? We talked about those things instead, we talked about her charitable wishes. Now today, she's like the go to of her friends and family to be the trustee, the executor, the power of attorney, I mean, person who was totally phobic, and now she's like the wanted financial point person, so and so. I don't think she's a standalone case. I think that again, just my first showing up, having the conversation. Now, before the crisis happens, before the money lands in your lap, you want to get acclimated well, you want to have a team in place after those things have happened, and especially if it's a situation where it's your spouse, you know, you're you're overcome with grief, those that's a very difficult time to do all that work, and you can just to source a team. Is a lot. So, you know, look to do some of those things.

Now, okay, I mean, that was a lot to unpack in that answer, so let me just summarize a couple of things I heard. Number one, ditch the story that you're not good at math or that you're not good with money or numbers. Just ditch that story. It's not serving and as you say, it doesn't necessarily match the reality or the lived experience of what you see with a lot of women anyway, they really are doing the things. So then number two, don't delay. Don't delay in maxing. You know, whether it's maxing out your 401K contribution, setting up those accounts for the kids, education funds, any of those things. And then also, don't delay in terms of finding your helpers, finding your team, putting that team together. And then, you know, I also want to underscore, and I would say this is third, but maybe this goes up at the top of the list, is start thinking about what you want, what you know, so that you can answer that question when the time comes and you're not necessarily feeling the pinch of it needs to be. You know that you need to be driven by a financial decision when you have a little when you have that discretionary income as or discretionary money, whether it's income or inheritance, what do you want? Because we don't want to be caught off guard with that. We want to be ready for that?

Karen: Yes, that's really, you nailed it. I think that's, and again, it's that is a question, that is a simple question, and it's really difficult to answer, and it takes time, and it can change. So, yeah, you know, kick it around when you're taking the dog for a walk, and kind of dig into that. And a great tool that a friend of mine, uh, colleague, Tracy Richmond, shared on a podcast we recorded a couple years ago is she uses this exercise and has some of her clients think about, you know, like, What were their dreams when they were a child, you know, going back, or maybe even just, like, not, you know, but when you're you like, what were some of the things that got away from you and going back to that to kind of, maybe, maybe, maybe you want to be a horse trainer, and you don't want to be a horse trainer now, but maybe that's still connected to something inside that you want to do. So just by stirring up and going way back to the beginning, that can produce some really fruitful results.

Oh, those are that's great. I could just see the person who wanted to be a horse trainer. Now, maybe they are going to, maybe they're not even going to buy their own horse. Maybe they are going to work with, I know there are life coaches who work with equine therapy and horses and so on. So, I mean, maybe there's just a some avocation or personal fulfillment enrichment that they could do that taps back into something that goes, like you said, all the way back to their childhood.

Karen: Exactly. And I think, like what I've found in, you know, like my own career, you know, in like, your career, where you have these seemingly disparate, you know, paths, but then at some point in time, they actually end up all being connected. And I think that exists for a lot of us. And so, yeah, when we get to the stage where we're ready for our next, you know, kind of runway, where's that going to take us, we can look at some of these different pieces and go, Oh, what is that common thread? What is that fabric? And, like you said, there's something that will tie it and connect it together.

Well, when you think long term about this, what do you think the longer term consequences of this trend is going to be, how might it continue to reshape how we think about work, women's roles in work, and gender roles all the things, yeah,

Karen: This is sort gets really interesting. I mean, one thing that comes to mind is that women tend to be more charitable, more generous and so, and they also tend to support women's causes with their charitable dollars. And so, you know that is going to be impactful. That is going to be impactful if they're supporting more women's research around, for example, whether it's menopause, like we were talking about earlier, or if it's around women entering fields like stem financial services, you know, closing wealth gaps. I think it can be, it's going to be very women are also directing their cash towards companies that aren't just doing well for themselves. A lot of women are, are interested in sustainable investing. ESG, there's a number of different labels. I generally tend to think about the whole category as basically companies that are interested in more than just doing well for themselves. They're interested in improving the communities they serve the people who work for them the world at large. And they do it a number of different ways, by employing a diverse workforce, reducing their carbon footprint, whatever it may be, or combination of different factors. But women are very interested in supporting companies like this and that are transitioning to a more sustainable future. So that is a trend that I don't think is going to change. I think it's just going to get stronger, which is interesting, and like a whole separate conversation about kind of the ESG that's under fire right now, similar to, like the DEI but I think it's part of growing pains. You know, it's just, it's growing pains. It's not going away. ESG, or sustainable investing is still kind of in its infancy as a as category. It's a little bit of a Wild West in terms of, you know, there's a lot of different ways that people define it, use labels interchangeably, but the nature of people wanting to invest in companies that are not just destructive and that are, again, you know, going to help us transition to a more sustainable economy. That interest is not going away, and women's dollars in particular are going to help fuel those companies. So that is something to keep an eye on.

That is fascinating. And women, both women supporting women and women supporting causes, whether they be social movement causes or nonprofits, or where they're putting their investing dollars, and it, what it reminds me of is, and I think this is back me up on this. I think you're going to back me up on this when I oftentimes when people come to me and they're like, they're not confident about something, let's say it's whether it's public speaking or, you know, the newly promoted manager who's giving performance reviews for the first time, and they're just not confident in it. What I always tell them is that confidence comes from putting in the reps. The more performance evaluations you give, the more confident you get at it, the more difficult conversations you initiate, the more confident you get at it, the more public speaking you do, the more confident you get at it. So for the woman who wants to develop that confidence, and maybe it's confidence that she's going to need in the future when she does come into that inheritance, and maybe that is, you know, X number of years away, whether, hopefully it's not soon for any of you, but when it does come to pass that you are in control of those larger numbers of dollars, if you have put in the reps, educating yourself, Working with someone like yourself to get that back of support and help and understanding that, I think that's what's going to set women up for the best options available.

Karen: 100% Janel, I back you up 100% and I say the exact same thing, and you can't fake it. There's no way to fake it till you make it. You have to put those reps in. You have to show up. And I don't think it has to be as painful and scary as people think. And again, this is where it does come down to your advisor, which, by the way, we'll talk maybe about next, about the implications for financial services in particular. But there is a well known statistic in our industry financial services, that up to 70% of women leave their financial advisor after their spouse passes. Ah, why? Because they don't feel seen and heard in those meetings. Most commonly, the advisor, which is very male dominated field, is speaking to his male counterpart. And so the woman, maybe is there, but she's not getting her reps in. She's at the meeting, but she's not getting reps because she's on, you know, someone's sitting in the bench the whole time with the weights, and she's waiting for them to get off the bench, like create the space for the reps to happen. Because what I have seen again in working with many clients over the years to and male and female. Usually in any relationship, you have one partner who is the point person and the other that you know, maybe differs a little bit more. But I always want to see both of them at the meeting, because even, you know, we kind of joke about it being osmosis, even if one person is the point person, you're still there having the conversations. You know the vocabulary, you know what accounts we're talking about, you've learned the difference maybe between Roth, Ira and, you know, 401K and just some of these things that, again, after a death, it's so much to take in all at once. I don't want that for anyone. What I really want is that, yeah, you get started now and getting this exposure a little bit at a time, through phone calls, through meetings, you're listening to a podcast. You know, maybe there's something in the newsletter that catches your eye. Little by little, you look back in five years and go, Oh my gosh, I know so much more today than I knew five years ago, and it's all spent from that continuous even just small pieces of exposure.

Yeah. And also, what I'm taking away from what you just shared is that if you happen to be in a relationship where, let's say, your spouse was the one who selected the planner that you're currently working with, don't take a back seat. Get your you know, sit at the table, be in that conversation. Learn as much as you can. If you're in a situation where you're looking for a planner. Talk about that together, make that decision together, so that you're not the spouse who decides to leave the planner after your spouse dies.

Karen: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, of course, you know, I think credentials and experience are important, but there is a lot to be said for your comfort factor. Is this someone that you're going to be comfortable sharing. I mean, if it's like, you know you're you're burying yourself, just like you would to your physician. I mean, like you are really burying yourself and sharing a lot of times more information with your advisor than your own family knows about you. And so it is almost like hiring another family member. And so you have to feel comfortable, and if you don't, are you going to go to the meeting? Are you going to find a reason to bail? Are you going to have to take Susie to softball practice? Because, you know, no one else can do it, and just find a way to wiggle out at the meeting? Yes, because you dread going to the meeting because you don't feel seen or heard. So I you know all the checklists that you traditionally find online about what to look for in a financial advisor, they're missing. A lot of them are missing that crucial element of finding someone that you really mesh with and you really feel comfortable with, because if you don't feel comfortable, you're not going to engage, and it's not going to lead to a good outcome.

Yeah, wow, oh my goodness. I feel like there's such a such a great list of takeaways, of things that that we need to be doing. We need to ditch the story we that we don't, that we're not good at math. We need to find all the helpers, get systems in place, maximize our contributions to things. We need to start now. We need to plan for what it is we might want to do, what we might want to change. If, you know, it's that, that question that we love to ask, but maybe don't spend enough time asking money was no object. You know, really, what would we

Karen: Yeah, and you know what I think a great exercise for that is buy a lotto ticket. A lotto ticket is a simple catalyst to get that twirling in your brain, like, what would it do? What would it do if we won this windfall? And especially, you know, a lot of people don't buy lotto tickets because they know it's wasteful. They're probably not going to win. But I do think it's a useful exercise, and just kind of activating that part of your brain to go, what if.

Absolutely, and as I like to say, and I think this comes from, it might even be the Minnesota lottery, but some lottery that I have heard, if you don't play, you can't win. I think the same is true, just in general, with our finances. If you don't play, you can't win. If you get educated, if you don't understand what's happening in the world, you can't win. Oh, Karen, thank you so much for this wide ranging, very enlightening conversation. I am so excited to actually take take this on myself, all the things that we've been talking about here.

Karen: Yeah, and with the caveat of, don't feel like you have to do it all right, and maybe it's not reasonable for you to max everything out right now, I'm not saying you have to max everything out, but what I'm saying is, with regards to the maxing, is you're probably already doing a lot of the right things. So don't underestimate that.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think for me, what this is also piqued in my curiosity is, you know, the next time I see an attention grabbing headline like the one I mentioned at the top of the top of the show, it's like, dig into that, read that article, see where that takes me. What else can I learn from that about the broader trends that are shaping the economy and specifically how that's going to impact me? Wonderful. Well, where can my listeners go to learn more about you, and, quite frankly, to learn from you.

Alright. And we will link those up in the show notes as well, especially to Karen's podcast, so that you can go learn more from her.

Remember, my friends, the future of work is not only about technology, it's about the values we uphold, the communities we build, and the sustainable growth we strive for. We need to keep exploring, keep innovating and keep envisioning the remarkable possibilities that lie ahead as always, stay curious, stay informed and stay ahead of the trends shaping our world. Until next time, my friends, be well.